Float definition

[js2002]

Hi,

I think the float turn and river def ist garbage.
The posted hand is a PT3 Turn float.
So I extended the stat by building-in 2 new filters:

sum(if[holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet_def_opp AND
holdem_hand_player_statistics.enum_f_cbet_action='C' AND
holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_float, 1, 0])

For me a float is "vs the PFA" in position. ("flg_t_float" I hope this flag contains the "in_position" flag/check, is this correct?)

So now my Turn and River defs are better for me (and the german community) I got a little problem with the flop float stat of kraada:

sum(if[ holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise and holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_raise = 0 and
holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_call = 1 and
holdem_hand_player_detail.flg_f_open_opp and
holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_bet and holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos > holdem_hand_player_statistics.position, 1, 0])

Problem is: p_raise = 0
I could 2Bet and call a 3Bet or I could 3bet and call a 4bet. So this cases are not in the stat :( Help plz!
Do we have to use something like "last action preflop was a call" sth like "%C" or "*C".

Code: Select all

***** Cassava Hand History for Game 201942260 *****
$0.06/$0.12 Blinds Fix Limit Holdem - *** 09 08 2009 22:47:42
Table Turmero (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 4: Uwe44 ( $16.75 )
Seat 5: CKonstantin ( $8.17 )
Seat 6: Albog199 ( $8.65 )
Seat 8: Slopc ( $39.70 )
Seat 9: avajfire ( $7.48 )
Uwe44 posts small blind [$0.06]
CKonstantin posts big blind [$0.12]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to avajfire [ Tc, Ts ]
Albog199 folds
Slopc calls [$0.12]
avajfire raises [$0.24]
Uwe44 calls [$0.18]
CKonstantin calls [$0.12]
Slopc calls [$0.12]
** Dealing flop ** [ 3s, 4c, Jd ]
Uwe44 checks
CKonstantin checks
Slopc bets [$0.12]
avajfire calls [$0.12]
Uwe44 calls [$0.12]
CKonstantin calls [$0.12]
** Dealing turn ** [ Th ]
Uwe44 checks
CKonstantin checks
Slopc checks
avajfire bets [$0.25]
Uwe44 folds
CKonstantin folds
Slopc calls [$0.25]
** Dealing river ** [ 3c ]
Slopc checks
avajfire bets [$0.25]
Slopc folds
** Summary **
avajfire did not show his hand
avajfire collected [ $1.85 ]


[WhiteRider]

The hand you post there doesn't have a turn float because the flop aggressor is a different player to the preflop aggressor.
As far as I'm aware the turn (and river) float stats are correct - they only count hands where the preflop aggressor bet the flop and was called then checked the turn and someone bets behind them.

This is the expression I have for Float Flop:
cnt_f_float =
sum( if[ holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_bet AND NOT holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.position < holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise, 1, 0 ] )

I can't remember where this came from, but it looks reasonable.
i.e. the player bets the flop but it's not a c-bet (so they are not the PFA), and they have position on the PFA, and they faced a raise preflop (so there is a PFA).

[js2002]

The hand you post there doesn't have a turn float because the flop aggressor is a different player to the preflop aggressor.
As far as I'm aware the turn (and river) float stats are correct - they only count hands where the preflop aggressor bet the flop and was called then checked the turn and someone bets behind them.


MOEP! The posted hand shows 100% (1 of 1) float turn! Thats why I changed it. So its au bug? Report it please.


This is the expression I have for Float Flop:
cnt_f_float =
sum( if[ holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_bet AND NOT holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.position < holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise, 1, 0 ] )

I can't remember where this came from, but it looks reasonable.
i.e. the player bets the flop but it's not a c-bet (so they are not the PFA), and they have position on the PFA, and they faced a raise preflop (so there is a PFA).

I see, @kraada: which is your actual correct column? Mine or WhiteRiders?

FOUND A PM from MAY 2009 of kraada:

It looks like you're looking at an outdated version of cnt_f_float, it should read:
sum(if[ holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise and holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_raise = 0 and holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_call = 1 and holdem_hand_player_detail.flg_f_open_opp and holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_bet and holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos > holdem_hand_player_statistics.position, 1, 0])

[kraada]

These two columns do slightly different things, so let's break down the differences. There is no universally accepted definition of flop float (though I personally like mine better, and we'll get to why).

Call our definitions (1) and (2)
(1) sum( if[ holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_bet AND NOT holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.position < holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise, 1, 0 ] )

(2) sum(if[ holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise and holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_raise = 0 and holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_call = 1 and holdem_hand_player_detail.flg_f_open_opp and holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_bet and holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos > holdem_hand_player_statistics.position, 1, 0])

Both have certain things in common. Removing the duplicates the differences are:

(1*) NOT holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet

vs

(2*) holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_raise = 0 and holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_call = 1 and holdem_hand_player_detail.flg_f_open_opp

And the things we agree on are:

(A) holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_bet AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.position < holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise

So in both case we are facing a preflop raise from someone, at the end of the day we are in position on the flop, and we bet the flop. WhiteRider has us not having the chance to c-bet. This eliminates us 3-betting and having our opponent call preflop (though we could 3-bet, have our opponent 4-bet and we call).

Frankly I wouldn't want those to be spots I'd be analyzing with this stat. I really wanted it to be we just face a raise and flat in position, then bet when checked to. That's why I have us not raising preflop, and calling exactly once. The thought occurs though that this could be condensed to: lookup_actions_p.action = 'C'. The net effect is the same, though. Upon further reflection flg_f_open_opp is actually not necessary as you cannot make a bet (with flg_f_bet) without having a chance to bet (flg_f_open_opp), though for float opportunities you will still want this.

So basically it comes down to: do you want times where you 3-bet, face a 4-bet and call, then get checked to to count as flop float opportunities? I say no, WhiteRider says yes. I of course think I'm right but I'll leave you to make your own decision. The reason behind my thinking though is that you can't float the flop if you raise a flop c-bet, as if you raise his cbet and he 3-bets the flop and you call, then I don't think it counts as a turn c-bet opportunity.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

[js2002]

Perfect explaination!

You argue very well.

I have never seen this "points".

At least the last comparision to the flop -> turn float to the preflop -> flop float made it clear for me.

To keep it consistent I think I have to work at:
sum(if[holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet_def_opp AND
holdem_hand_player_statistics.enum_f_cbet_action='C' AND
holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_float, 1, 0])

and add a "call once" or a "not 3bet" or a "not face 4bet".
Kraada, please reply very short if call once (cnt_p_call = 1) is enough.

And watch out: the turn and river float flags are incorrect working.

[kraada]

Call once should be enough if you're definitely facing a cbet.

I will look into who is correct with regards to the built in turn float field - WhiteRider or myself. I am not 100% certain how things are handled internally for that field.

[js2002]

Call once should be enough if you're definitely facing a cbet.

I will look into who is correct with regards to the built in turn float field - WhiteRider or myself. I am not 100% certain how things are handled internally for that field.

Welcome! You can look into it, I see the distinctive result on the HUD. But I am looking forward to hear about the result / the cause of that error.

Until then I decided to inherit kraadas defintion of the flop float stat. For Turn and River I made the apaptions posted above (the floater needs to call a cbet on previous street) + the adaption p_call = 1. So, the 3 streets should be covered and work perfect.

Now to the reaction stats: Fold/Call/Raise to Float
I adapted like this:

Flop Fold to Float
denominator: cnt_f_float_def_opp
sum(if[ not(holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise) and holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_raise > 0 and holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos = -1 and holdem_hand_player_detail.flg_f_open_opp and holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_check and holdem_hand_player_detail.amt_f_bet_facing > 0, 1, 0])

one numerator: cnt_f_float_def_opp_action_fold
sum(if[ not(holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise) and holdem_hand_player_statistics.cnt_p_raise > 0 and holdem_hand_player_detail.val_p_raise_aggressor_pos = -1 and holdem_hand_player_detail.flg_f_open_opp and holdem_hand_player_detail.amt_f_bet_facing > 0 and substring(lookup_actions_f.action from 1 for 2) = 'XF', 1, 0])

Turn Fold to Float
denominator: js2002_cnt_t_float_def_opp
sum(if[NOT(holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise) AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_t_float_def_opp, 1, 0])
one numerator: js2002_cnt_t_cbet_float_def_opp_action_fold
sum(if[NOT(holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_p_face_raise) AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.flg_f_cbet AND holdem_hand_player_statistics.enum_t_float_action='F', 1, 0])

(analog to Turn = River but with adapted "t"s and "r"s.)

@Kraada: It looks like more work than it is, but if u got time please check if my adations correspond to your definition.

[kraada]

Yes, the turn adaptations look correct to me.

[WhiteRider]

If you have a hand which is incorrectly reporting turn or river floats then please attach the hand history to a support ticket and we'll check it out.

[js2002]

see first post, I made a workaround so I dont need a ticket....